«Dr. Rodney Ford: There’s a huge argument in the field about A1 and A2 milk. Professor Keith Woodford, who is working on a book called [Inaudible] ...»
Dr. Rodney Ford: There’s a huge argument in the field about A1 and A2 milk. Professor Keith Woodford,
who is working on a book called [Inaudible] in the Milk. This is all to do with one amino acid change in
the casing molecule. That tiny little change makes it resistant to particular enzyme degeneration, it
means that you can’t digest that casing molecule so well, and that’s been associated with a lot of
autoimmune disease and problems in the future.
So, this another protein and another staple, milk, that has been suggested anyway. He says it causes many illnesses, which are serious, including heart disease, type one diabetes, autism, and schizophrenia.
So, if we can’t eat our gluten and we can’t eat our casing in our A1 milk, then we had better go back to eating fruit, vegetables, not too much meat, fish, and rice and corn. Avoid the gluten grains and avoid some of this dairy that could be causing us trouble.
Dr. Peter Osborne: I wanted to ask you a little bit about corn. I’ve actually seen about a half dozen studies come out now on maize prolamine contributing to immune damage and antibody production, in some studies equal to that of gluten and other studies slightly less than that of gluten, but nonetheless they’re finding it.
These studies were all done in patients that have active Celiac Disease. Are you familiar with those studies? If so, what is your opinion on that?
Dr. Rodney Ford: I am. Unfortunately, quite a lot of people don’t get better because they are now eating more maize, because it’s a substitution grain for the gluten grains and they can get maize allergy, they can react quite adversely to it, but most of them just get the same symptoms they were getting before with gluten. Then they have to go off maize, so that’s quite a big step for them to take.
There are alternate grains and corn, unfortunately is used as a high glycemic food, it’s not that nutritious. If you can avoid corn that’s probably good, but it becomes harder and harder for people when they can’t have these easy gluten free things, but unfortunately of the packaged glutens which aren’t healthy at all because they’re full of sugar, salt, and fat.
Just because they’re gluten free doesn’t mean that they’re good for you. Gluten free is not necessarily healthy. If you plan to have a cookie made of wheat, sugar, and fat, well if you have the same cookie made of maize, sugar, and fat it’s just as bad. We have to be very conscious of what we’re eating and we have to think about what we’re eating in a much universal way.
Kind of go shopping, get some food, and fill our selves full with the stuff because it’s going to harm us and it will kill us. Some people call it culinary suicide, you’re killing with your teeth. We have to think very carefully about our food, because our food is the basic platform of keeping us healthy and well.
Dr. Peter Osborne: Thank you for saying that. I feel like I’ve been saying that for a number of years to a lot of different people. One of the first things that I see happen with the diagnosis of gluten sensitivity is patients will run to the grocery store and they’ll buy every packaged food they can find as long as it says, “gluten free.” As you just said, most of these items are extremely unhealthy regardless of the fact that they’re gluten free. So, they’re not really good for the patient anyway. When you have somebody who is already very sick trying to nurse them back to health through adequate diet and proper nutrition, these gluten free products often times are a crutch to continue them maintaining their disease state.
So, it’s good to hear you say that, because it just confirms more so, at least in my mind, that we’re on the right track.
Dr. Rodney Ford: Basic diet and it’s been called this by lots of people the SAD diet, the Standard American Diet or the Standard Australasian Diet is sugar, wheat, fat based and it’s unhealthy. We’ve see the epidemic of obesity.
Unfortunately, as you say, when some people go gluten free they actually put on more weight and get more obese, because they are actually increasing their empty calories. They’re eating more sugar, fat, and corn rather than changing their diet entirely.
It’s a great opportunity when you’re diagnosed with gluten sensitivity to relook at your diet and relooking at the ingredients to learn. In my clinic I’ve written books to help people, because they don’t know what to do.
I’ve got a book called Going Gluten Free, How to Get Started and we say a good place to start is bread.
You want to replace bread with other foods, particularly fruits and vegetables. They’re what a diet should be based on, but when everybody is hurrying and doesn’t want to get fresh groceries, which are expensive.
The problem is that in our countries cheap food is seen to be good food, but cheap food is bad food. A cheap gluten free diet is not a good idea. You’ve got to pay good money to get good food. If you invest in your diet and you invest in your food then you’re going to feel better, you’re going to save heaps of money on doctor’s bills, you’re going to live longer, you’re going to have more energy and you’re going to be more productive and much happier.
So, it’s a matter of investing in your food, not just getting the cheap junk food that you can just get a quick calorie fill and then think you’re going to be well nourished. People just have the wrong idea about how to eat.
Dr. Peter Osborne: I absolutely agree. You were mentioning before A1 and A2 milk. Can you give me some terminology there? That’s not a term I’m familiar with.
Dr. Rodney Ford: It’s like these scientists calling things alpha, beta, gamma calling them one and two.
The story is basically that about 1,000 years ago there was a genetic change in a sort of animals in Europe, the herd of cows, and their casing was changed by one amino acid. The original gene type is called A2 and the new modification A1. It’s calling A1, because it’s the first casing that was actually described.
What happened is that most of the European and Australasian, and I think American is now derived from this herd of cows that is now A1, which is the recent. The A2, which is the original, is mostly in other countries, I think especially through the African countries. I’d have to look it up to be absolutely sure.
Therefore, we’ve got this casing that doesn’t get digested properly and therefore is a variable to make antibodies that stimulate autoimmune disease, just the same as growth. I will send you a link for the book with this in it, and it’s certainly something we need to take attention of.
Dr. Peter Osborne: That brings up another question then. In the U.S., I don’t know how it’s done in New Zealand, but I know in the U.S. mostly we feed a grain based with hormones and that’s how milk is pretty much derived is through cows that are being fed grain.
Of course, native cows traditionally and genetically are wrought on grass, hay, clover, and other things that they graze or pasture for. Do you feel like this has something to do with why so many people are reacting to dairy as well?
Dr. Rodney Ford: Absolutely. In New Zealand we actually grass feed our cattle in meadows and they’re not grain fed, and the dairy herds are fed on grass. So, there isn’t the opportunity for them to get gluten into their systems.
When you grain feed animals small amounts of the proteins that they ingest do go through into the milk.
There’s very good evidence in humans that small amounts of the antigens or food allergens, food proteins that the mother eats if she is breastfeeding they can get into the child and they can cause upset as colic, diarrhea, or failure to thrive. Certainly if these mothers go gluten free or dairy free if that’s the problem the baby will get better.
Now, going into cows, the cows will also put small amounts of these food proteins into their milk and therefore dairy cow milk is not necessarily gluten free, because there can be traces of gluten. Some people are that sensitive that those small amounts that come through the cow’s udder may upset them.
Is that what you’ve seen?
Dr. Peter Osborne: That’s exactly what I’ve seen. I’ve actually had a number of patients that come from Europe, they tend to do very well with the dairy in their country, like in New Zealand I guess their cattle are primarily pastured and not grain fed. When they come to the U.S. the dairy tends to create a whole lot of problems for them.
So, I have seen that clinically. I’ve often times at least hypothesized that we know that gluten will pass through into mother’s milk in humans, so why couldn’t it be the case as well with cattle. I recently came across a study and I don’t even think it’s been published yet. I talked to the author and he sent me the study.
They actually were trying to detect gluten in the cow’s milk and they were not able to do that. So, my theory is there are other proteins beyond gluten that can contribute to the similar reactions that we see in these patients. I think there’s more to the whole spectrum than just gluten.
Dr. Rodney Ford: Exactly. Coming from the food allergy side, I’ve been doing food allergies for 30 years, it was shown a long time ago in the 1940s and 1950s that there were about 20 different proteins in cow’s milk that people could react to and be allergic to, both in the whey side and in the casing side of dairy. Although casing is a problem and although [inaudible] is a problem, there are lots of different proteins that can upset.
Now, when we go for gluten, that’s only a tiny section of the protein in wheat. We know that lots of people are wheat allergic and they react immediately to some of the wheat proteins and have wheat allergy. Sometimes gluten can cause an immediate allergy, but it doesn’t usually. It usually causes a delayed onset reaction.
There may be other proteins in wheat that we just are unaware of how they react, because the focus has been on gluten and not on the other proteins. It’s hard enough to persuade the laboratories to test for gluten antibodies let alone any other subfractions of wheat. We just don’t know anything about these wheat and milk protein reactions really.
There’s just so much we don’t know. Even getting to first base by saying, “Maybe gluten causes more harm than Celiac disease,” that seems a horrifical statement in many organizations. So, getting other wheat proteins on the agenda seems a long way away.
Dr. Peter Osborne: I would agree with that. I think that we’re lucky to have gluten being so well identified now, even though it’s not in the forefront of gastroenterology, at least it’s in the forefront of the public press. There’s a lot of press over it now and there have been a lot of actors and spokespeople come out that are famous that are at least helping spread the word a little bit more efficiently than the medical community.
Dr. Rodney Ford: Absolutely.
Dr. Peter Osborne: For those folks I’m very thankful, because it’s made my job a heck of a lot easier. I know probably just like yourself, you’ve kind of stuck your neck out there to shift the status quo to think a little bit differently or to think a little bit more enlightened, I guess I could say, in terms of gluten and in terms of the impact that it has on health.
Often times it’s met with a lot of animosity and it’s met with, frankly, just a lot of poor professionalism, at least in my experience.
Dr. Rodney Ford: New scientific information takes a long to be acted upon. The people who are speaking out early on, the early adopters, are always criticized by their peers. That doesn’t mean to say we’re wrong. Usually, a good idea and a fundamental breakthrough is met with scorn and derision first of all.
So, now that that’s happening I believe that there is already a momentum building. The community will not stand for rude doctors saying that they are imagining things and locking them up in a mental home or sending them to a psychiatrist saying they are imagining these things happening to them. I think those sort of stories are terrible.
The whole business of food and health has been looked at in cholesterol. Just to mention about cholesterol. Most people, and it’s driven by the drug companies, believe that if your cholesterol level is getting high you should do something about it.
There are very few doctors who would say, “We’ll just wait until you have a heart attack and have end stage disease, then we’ll do something about your cholesterol.” They’re going to do something about it early on. They’re going to do something early on about your blood pressure. They’re not going to do a heart biopsy and say, “You’ve got no damage yet. We won’t act.” I think it’s child abuse to see these children who are obviously reacting to gluten, have high gluten antibodies, are really sick and when you do the blood test and they haven’t quite got Celiac Disease, and when you do the biopsy it’s normal, if you keep these children on with gluten and making them sick waiting for end stage disease before you take them off of toxic, I think that’s criminal.
I think we should do a lot more to diagnose these children early and not insist that they have growth failure, have psychiatric problems, have schooling difficulties, have stressed parents, and depressed parents, that we need to treat these children early. Take out the gluten and not make them have end stage disease.
As you can hear from my voice, I get really cranky about this. I think it’s completely unjustifiable to wait until they’ve gotten to Celiac Disease.
Dr. Peter Osborne: Yes, absolutely. I agree with you. That was a wonderful analogy comparing it to heart disease. We’re so focused on prevention in that arena, I think more so because we have the medications to treat preventatively more than because our actual concern is there. I think it’s more commercially driven.
Dr. Rodney Ford: One more thing to say about the medical practitioners who don’t know about gluten tests. Interestingly, I’ve had a person beginning to work with me and I’ve been training her for the last year.